If you shop at Amazon.com (for anything), use this link to support FordTaurus.net!

2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

keendoggy
Regular Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:03 am

2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by keendoggy »

Ok, here is an updated video with more info. You be the judge. Check out the front wheels burning rubber through 2 gears on PAVEMENT, then tell me if you think the FSE (Ford Service Engineer) got it right. Any other SHO owners want to weigh in?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me9lmhcUFWg

User avatar
PMCErnie
New Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:23 am
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: 2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by PMCErnie »

Your problem is that your thinking and logic are out-of-date. Your car has AWD, not 4WD. It is also equipped with traction control and ESC which directs power to various wheels in accordance with road conditions. The whole purpose is to move your car safely, not spin your wheels wildly and end up in a ditch. If you look at your movie, you will note that it is the rear wheels that moved your car through the snow, not the front ones that you were spinning like mad...and for what! Get with the program. Your car is not designed for the drag strip, it's designed to be safe on the road and to put power to the wheels, as needed.
Last edited by PMCErnie on Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
2009 Taurus SEL (smokestone/tan)
2012 Hyundai Genesis 3.8 sedan (cabernet red pearl/tan)

2010SEL
Regular Member
Posts: 320
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:44 am

Re: 2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by 2010SEL »

PMCErnie wrote:Your problem is that your thinking and logic are out-of-date. Your car has AWD, not 4WD. It is also equipped with traction control and ESC which directs power to various wheels in accordance with road conditions. The whole purpose is to move your car safely, not spin your wheels wildly and end up in ditch. If you look at your movie, you will note that it is the rear wheels that moved your car through the snow, not the front ones that you were spinning like mad...and for what! Get with the program. Your car is not designed for the drag strip, it's designed to be safe on the road and to put power to the wheels, as needed.
This makes perfect sense to me... for whatever that's worth. :lol:
2013 Ruby Red Escape SEL
2012 Lava Red Mustang GT Premium

User avatar
STingray
Regular Member
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:40 am
Location: SF East Bay Area

Re: 2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by STingray »

I completely disagree with the assesments mentioned here. I've driven Subaru AWDs, and there's no way they'd try to pass off as "AWD" what you're experiencing.

I've had a number of vehicles with TCS of various genres. And when things are working properly, *NO* wheel will free-spin at will. I don't care who's making it, but TCS and AWD should perform better than that. The front - spinning tires, in each case, are the ones moving the car forward. If even the TCS only was working, as soon as the wheels started to spin, the engine ignition would retard and keep the wheels from spinning freely like that.

Sorry, but from an ex-mechanics perspective, "something's not working properly".

I highly recommend you try a different dealer, even in another nearby state if possible. -Or find a good indy to help you out.

Short of that, get hold of the local news station if they have a "On Your Side" kinda deal.

If you're willing to go to the wall about this that is...
Ray
2013 F150 FX4 EcoBoost
2013 Focus SE
2006 Honda ST1300A

sorensenj
Regular Member
Posts: 108
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:52 am

Re: 2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by sorensenj »

I would agree that it seems like the front wheels are spinning too much while the rear wheels don't look like they are doing anything. Or are they? One thing that doesn't seem to be happening is the car getting out of sorts with torque steer or off line movements. It appears to keep a fairly straight path in both senerios. Isn't that what it's supposed to do? I'm not exactly sure what the definition of how AWD is supposed to work but keeping the car straight is definately one of the desired effects.
With as much horsepower as an SHO has I would think it could smoke the front wheels right off the car if the AWD, traction control and stability aren't working properly. Don't really see that in the dry pavement senerio. Maybe it's set up to allow for a somewhat controlled wheel spin. You know: folks can get their jollies spinning the wheels but the car still is in reasonable control. Sounds like the perfect setup IMO plus you don't totally waste your expensive tires lol.
2008 T/X SEL awd
2008 Silverado LS 4x4

User avatar
Len_A
Regular Member
Posts: 2544
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:26 pm
Location: Westland, MI (suburb of Detroit)

Re: 2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by Len_A »

STingray wrote:I completely disagree with the assesments mentioned here. I've driven Subaru AWDs, and there's no way they'd try to pass off as "AWD" what you're experiencing.

I've had a number of vehicles with TCS of various genres. And when things are working properly, *NO* wheel will free-spin at will. I don't care who's making it, but TCS and AWD should perform better than that. The front - spinning tires, in each case, are the ones moving the car forward. If even the TCS only was working, as soon as the wheels started to spin, the engine ignition would retard and keep the wheels from spinning freely like that.

Sorry, but from an ex-mechanics perspective, "something's not working properly".

I highly recommend you try a different dealer, even in another nearby state if possible. -Or find a good indy to help you out.

Short of that, get hold of the local news station if they have a "On Your Side" kinda deal.

If you're willing to go to the wall about this that is...
That's because your experience with the Subaru AWD system colors your thinking. Subaru's AWD system is a full-time all wheel drive system. The system used by Ford across all their lines, whether it's the Haldex system or one sourced by Ford through another vendor, is a part-time computer controlled system, whose operation PMCErnie described very well.

You're right - the traction control shouldn't allow him to burn rubber, unless it's turned off. And, no, he shouldn't take this to an independent mechanic because the car is under warranty. He should do two things: One, go to a different dealership, and since he's in or near Brighton, MI, he should do it now while we have a good amount of snow on the ground, and test drive something else with the EcoBoost V-6 and AWD (which is the automatic combination). Preferably, he should head to a Lincoln-Mercury dealership and test drive a MKS, since it's the same platform as the Taurus.

Two, since any Ford or Lincoln-Mercury dealer will honor the warranty, he should have them check his SHO out.
2005 Mercury Montego Premier AWD, Merlot with a Pebble interior. Safety Package, Reverse Sensing System, and Moonroof. X-Pel Paint/Headlight Protection. Lots of Zaino on the paint!

That which does not kill you, only makes you...stranger.

wchain
Regular Member
Posts: 651
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:32 pm

Re: 2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by wchain »

Supposedly the other AWD cars were Fords in house AWD setup, and the SHO goes back to the Haldex system because the less expensive Ford AWD system is not capable of handling the power output from the SHO.
2010 SHO 400B Tuxedo Black
Five Hundred SEL AWD DSG - SOLD
FJ Cruiser 4x4
Mercedes 300SE
F250 Crew Cab Lariat V10
Image

RStabb
Regular Member
Posts: 2103
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:07 pm
Location: PA

Re: 2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by RStabb »

I think Ernie hit the nail on the head. It's AWD not 4WD.

I watched the video on the other thread about this complaint and was impressed with the performance in deep snow.

On further thought, I'd say the system works as it should.

Driving like an asshole proves nothing. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a software program built in to prevent destroying the drivetrain when driving like that.

RS

User avatar
STingray
Regular Member
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:40 am
Location: SF East Bay Area

Re: 2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by STingray »

Len_A wrote:That's because your experience with the Subaru AWD system colors your thinking. Subaru's AWD system is a full-time all wheel drive system. The system used by Ford across all their lines, whether it's the Haldex system or one sourced by Ford through another vendor, is a part-time computer controlled system, whose operation PMCErnie described very well.

You're right - the traction control shouldn't allow him to burn rubber, unless it's turned off. And, no, he shouldn't take this to an independent mechanic because the car is under warranty. He should do two things: One, go to a different dealership, and since he's in or near Brighton, MI, he should do it now while we have a good amount of snow on the ground, and test drive something else with the EcoBoost V-6 and AWD (which is the automatic combination). Preferably, he should head to a Lincoln-Mercury dealership and test drive a MKS, since it's the same platform as the Taurus.

Two, since any Ford or Lincoln-Mercury dealer will honor the warranty, he should have them check his SHO out.
I see your point about Subaru's AWD being different. However, you must remember that there is a "transfer case" of some sort/design to take FWD power and shift it to the rear differential. If enough torque is applied to cause one axle or the other to spin significantly faster than the other, the transfer case becomes a "fuse" of sorts and will ultimately fail due to the extraneous stresses. That is why a TCS system is almost always in conjunction with an AWD system, to keep this very scenario from happening.

Now, that said, I cannot rule out that there is an AWD system that I am unfamiliar with that does not work on these principles. :wink:

Another thought/warning: If keendoggy WERE to go to another "local" dealership, they would likely fall under the oversight of the same FSE, yes?

But I *do* agree with the idea of just showing up at a dealer (in another car...not your SHO) and ask to test drive a car they pick at randoom. Then you can objectively see for yourself the difference
Last edited by STingray on Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ray
2013 F150 FX4 EcoBoost
2013 Focus SE
2006 Honda ST1300A

User avatar
PMCErnie
New Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:23 am
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: 2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by PMCErnie »

Search is our friend:

"Automatic all wheel drive" was created to save weight and money. Auto AWD can be used full time on all surfaces including pavement. AWD only briefly activates automatically when stability threatening conditions arise.

How does it do it?

Since ABS was introduced, cars have wheel speed sensors on all wheels. A central computer compares constantly the speed of all wheels.

In the case of ABS the computer tells the brakes to apply less pressure when one or more wheels want to lock up (rotate less).

In the case of automatic AWD the computer engages the other axle when the main powered axle sends signals of faster rotating wheels = indicating it has slipping wheels. The engagement usually happens right at the center differential or at a joining section of the front and rear drive shafts with a clutch pack or similar.

As soon as all 4 wheels are rotating at the same speed again, AWD is turned off by the computer."
2009 Taurus SEL (smokestone/tan)
2012 Hyundai Genesis 3.8 sedan (cabernet red pearl/tan)

keendoggy
Regular Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:03 am

Re: 2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by keendoggy »

I appreciate all the feedback. For the record, I am not a crazy whacko driver, just the average guy that likes to pass quickly and accelerate on entry ramps! I know there are major differences in AWD systems, but I know there are many similarities as well, especially when providing traction, whether it be on dry pavement or snow. I have had a few of the different types, the last being a Cadillac SRX (which has a transfer case, not a fluid system as does the SHO). I have a pretty good idea about how/when they should work. The AWD system on this SHO never worked.

Cudo's to the web and ways to get info out publicly. If it were not for the web and some of these forums it may not have gotten the attention it has. My dealer did NOTHING beyond the FSE's original diagnosis, and was not planning to do anything more. FORD CALLED MY DEALER (not the other way around) to arrange set up a time for a powertrain expert look at it tomorrow, I like that, someone's watching. Either way, it was like I told my dealer in an email after the second visit:


"All of this effort and research will ultimately lead me to one of two conclusions:


(1) The Taurus SHO AWD system does not perform well as an AWD vehicle. If that is the case I will make sure to "get the word out" publicly (websites, videos, etc.) so that anyone considering purchasing a SHO partly for the AWD system will know how the AWD system works (actually, that it doesn't work very well).
(2) I will find that you did not do your due diligence and that there is really a problem with the AWD system on my SHO, which someone will fix.


If the conclusion is (1), I will deal with that on my own as stated above, but I hope that you can inform your sales and service people on the short comings of the AWD system, and I apologize in advance for my rant. If the answer is (2), you can bet that Brighton Ford will never see me or my family come through the doors again, unless of course, Brighton Ford is the one that makes the discovery. That is your call, and a door I am leaving open for now."

I heard nothing, no "let us make a phone call", or "maybe we can ask some of our other SHO customers", or "give us a week or so to investigate further", or "try this and let us know what you find", no olive branch, nothing.

Will report back to you all - thanks!

RStabb
Regular Member
Posts: 2103
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:07 pm
Location: PA

Re: 2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by RStabb »


keendoggy
Regular Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:03 am

Re: 2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by keendoggy »

OK - here is what I expect. Check out how ALL 4 WHEELS DRIVE this SHO in SNOW:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rto_Wl-gkkg

Case closed.

RStabb
Regular Member
Posts: 2103
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:07 pm
Location: PA

Re: 2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by RStabb »

keendoggy wrote:OK - here is what I expect. Check out how ALL 4 WHEELS DRIVE this SHO in SNOW:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rto_Wl-gkkg

Case closed.
I don't understand? What is your complaint other then not being able to burn rubber on all four wheels on dry pavement.

RS

User avatar
STingray
Regular Member
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:40 am
Location: SF East Bay Area

Re: 2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by STingray »

Oh yeah. THAT's what I'm talking about!

That Taurus is even getting just a bit of fishtail from the rear wheels. It's clear the front wheels are spinning relatively faster than the rears, but the rears are definitely "spinning".

Good find. I think you're going to get your Taurus fixed...real soon. And hopefully (if you push it) a real nice door prize for your trouble and aggrevation (not to mention the disingenuousity on the part of your dealer. (I usually go for the jugular :) )

Go get 'em tiger!
Ray
2013 F150 FX4 EcoBoost
2013 Focus SE
2006 Honda ST1300A

RStabb
Regular Member
Posts: 2103
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:07 pm
Location: PA

Re: 2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by RStabb »

I must be missing something here. :?

User avatar
STingray
Regular Member
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:40 am
Location: SF East Bay Area

Re: 2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by STingray »

RStabb wrote: I don't understand? What is your complaint other then not being able to burn rubber on all four wheels on dry pavement.

RS
Not to interject uninvited, but I can think of 2 reasons (minimum):

1- A guy pays for AWD, he should get *A-W-D* ($4k extra?)

2- An incredible difference in road traction. In Keendoggy's case, he lives in snow country. I'm pretty certain that was taken into account when he decided to by a SHO...so he didn't have to struggle to drive around his neck-o-the-woods as much.

So, if say *I* paid the same money for the same car as the next guy, and HIS car performed as I expected mine to, but didn't, you'd find it hard to keep me off of Ford's (or anyone else's) throat. I'm just a bit litigeous that way :mrgreen: :wink:
Last edited by STingray on Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
Ray
2013 F150 FX4 EcoBoost
2013 Focus SE
2006 Honda ST1300A

User avatar
STingray
Regular Member
Posts: 623
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:40 am
Location: SF East Bay Area

Re: 2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by STingray »

RStabb wrote:I must be missing something here. :?
Well thanks for playing! We have some lovely parting gifts for you......

[teasing, of course:]

To understand AWD/FWD, you have to experience what it can do.

I didn't want AWD because here in "sunny" (of the liquid type) California....that's NORTHERN California, I didn't feel it was worth the extra $ for our situation and circumstances.

If I go to the snow, I gots me ma 4WD tuh git me thar! :mrgreen:
Ray
2013 F150 FX4 EcoBoost
2013 Focus SE
2006 Honda ST1300A

keendoggy
Regular Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:03 am

Re: 2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by keendoggy »

RStabb wrote:
keendoggy wrote:OK - here is what I expect. Check out how ALL 4 WHEELS DRIVE this SHO in SNOW:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rto_Wl-gkkg

Case closed.
I don't understand? What is your complaint other then not being able to burn rubber on all four wheels on dry pavement.

RS
No, No. Sorry for the misunderstanding. The issue is that NONE of the tires should burn rubber on dry pavement if you have AWD (unless, I guess, you have a rocket ship of a car), they should hook up and go and barely "chirp" when you floor it. My issue is that the rear wheels NEVER provide torque in any condition. It's broke.

keendoggy
Regular Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:03 am

Re: 2010 Taurus SHO Burning Rubber!!

Post by keendoggy »

STingray wrote:
RStabb wrote:I must be missing something here. :?
Well thanks for playing! We have some lovely parting gifts for you......

[teasing, of course:]

To understand AWD/FWD, you have to experience what it can do.

I didn't want AWD because here in "sunny" (of the liquid type) California....that's NORTHERN California, I didn't feel it was worth the extra $ for our situation and circumstances.

If I go to the snow, I gots me ma 4WD tuh git me thar! :mrgreen:

Right on. I want it for the snow and also for the overall performance. I have gotten used to AWD and really like it. I think the dealer should buy it back - who knows that damage that has been done now. Then I'll buy one from another dealer :evil: